einselective | Hadriel IC Contact.

[[ooc: Continuing from here to avoid too much threadjacking spam!]]

[Okay, he was... Not expecting any of that, and it takes him a little by surprise; he's also immediately defensive, both because he doesn't appreciate the aggressiveness and because the last comment feels very pointed even though logically he's aware that there's no way she could know.

Still, it makes his stomach jolt with nerves and his eyes darken in a flash of anger, and there's a distinct edge in his own tone when he responds.]

No one here is worth less, either, and it isn't your place to decides who should live or die. So cut it out with the self-righteousness; you don't get to tell people their lives are less important than someone else's, especially when that someone else is hypothetical.

[Of course she has no idea. No, her words are deeply entrenched in thoughts of another, much more ill-fated dimensional crossover.]

What part of it is hypothetical? Do you think I just came up with these thoughts out of nowhere? Answer this for me, if you lived beyond billions and billions of years how much more, how many more lives, how many more worlds would it be worth to you to live just one minute more? It's not like anyone else matters, as long as you keep living just that little bit longer!

You're talking about potential future effects; people who could be brought here, or are here and could be sent back to their worlds and affect those dimensions, right? That's what I understood from our last conversation.

[He's getting his emotions back under control quickly so his tone is more even once again, but it's still as intense.]

I'm really not personally interested in living forever, especially not here. But just writing off however many other people are in this place, all because you've decided their lives have less value than others who may or may not even be harmed, is not exactly something I'm going to agree with.

Yes... yes, of course...

[Marian taking in a deep breath is audible. Doesn't mean she's less upset, but shifts back to slightly more on the rails of the conversation.]

You know, I had this conversation a long time ago with Mello too. That was before you were here. Again, why do you think this is hypothetical? How many more people are brought in or tossed aside every few weeks? You're one of them! Maybe if Mello and Sharon hadn't helped the parasites, you wouldn't even be here!

[Well, he's glad she's calming down a little, at least. Her argument is not particularly convincing--if he weren't here he'd be bleeding to death on the ground in a parking garage, so Hadriel is not exactly a terrible alternative--but he'll just ignore that part entirely for now.]

Let's assume it isn't hypothetical, because although particular individuals and events affected are, you're right in that the scenario as a whole is not. It will, very likely, happen.

[He doesn't mind making that concession, because ultimately it doesn't matter.]

Even then, can you really say that however many people are here should just let themselves die? And even if so, and you don't care about them individually, what about how that'd affect their worlds? If someone dies here permanently, do that means they never go back to their worlds? What happens to the world they came from then; do they disappear? Are they erased from existence? Is there a ripple effect of harm that there might not have been otherwise?

We don't know, do we. I can theorize but... either way, it's even more reason to stop the parasites by any means, whatever outcome that means for the rest of us. They've made no secret of the fact this will continue as long as they're alive. That's just more and more worlds and universes they're touching and interfering with. The problem is already bigger than any of us here. Yet still everyone's concerned with their own little speck of insignificance no matter how I try to explain it!

What if the course of action you're proposing actually has worse and more widespread consequences? You can't say for sure that it won't, and wouldn't that invalidate the entire point?

[He's calmed again, tone quiet and contemplative.]

But if you want to have this sort of conversation with people and convince them to even consider what you're advocating for, I'd suggest finding a way to approach it that doesn't involve telling them they're selfish for wanting to live and then being shocked when they take it badly. It isn't wrong to want to survive.

[For all of her frustrations, at least it's gratifying that Lance is actually considering her point this time around, and asking good questions that... she'll have to think about. Maybe get Alphys' input, with all the dimensional signature work she'd been doing...]

Maybe not for us to want to. [She barely concedes.] Everybody... everything wants to. That's the problem, isn't it. To everyone, their life is the most important thing in the world. Just how far you're willing to go and what horrible things you're willing to do to keep it, is the question.

[Likewise he's glad she's listening and debating; he thinks she's wrong, still, but even if they don't agree the discussion itself is important.]

That isn't true. Not everyone values their own life most of all.

[That's just a fact; some people don't care about themselves at all, some do but would die for people they love, some do but would gladly sacrifice their life for a greater purpose. There are so many other levels in between, as well.]

Although I understand your argument, and I see how it makes sense to you, it objectively isn't convincing enough for you to reasonably expect people to make such a sacrifice. Even less so when you present it to them the way you have been.

[He isn't saying it pointedly or to insult her, but he thinks it's important to reiterate. Especially since--]

I've gotten the impression that many people here have had difficult lives; they've been treated as unimportant, or valueless, or have had to fight more than anyone should ever have to just to live. Telling them so directly that they should now be willing to give up everything, and that they're naive or cowardly or bad people for not immediately agreeing, is not only unfair but actively harmful to them.

[And if she's truly trying to do what's right, as misguided as Lance thinks it is, then that should matter.]

[Marian sighs. She's never been well prepared to coddle or take her time with convincing people, but she's sure Lance has some experience in that are, given his profession.]

Yes, I've spoken to at least one person you'd likely put in those categories. These are exactly the people that are going to hurt whatever our best effort is, too, lured in by false promises from the Null or the parasites. What's your solution for talking to them then?

[Lance doesn't at all like the way she worded that, and takes a moment to mentally count to five before responding.]

My solution is to talk to people like they're something other than obstacles for you. Explain your argument, expect people to disagree, and listen to and discuss their points and yours. You're not going to convince everyone, and in fact I don't think you're going to convince many people at all, but you definitely won't when you treat them like you're below you as you have been doing.

[Although he has to add--]

It's also worth considering why exactly you're so in the minority on this course of action, and the answer is not that you're the only intelligent or reasonable person in this place.

Isn't it? No, think we've already been over that enough.

[Not the only intelligent person, but certainly one among a very very few, in Marian's opinion. She's seen very little in the way of a compelling argument against beyond mere self-preservation instinct, unwarranted sympathies, and uncertainty. Suffice to say, she doesn't exactly sound convinced by any of this either.

Marian hasn't mentioned any past details of her own experiences beyond a brief, fragmented description to Lee. But here, in a private discussion with enough time passed since the event and with its relevance close at hand... while she disagrees with Lance on many things, he's the only one that put forward new questions, and actually engaged despite her earlier slip into irrationality. He's at least smart enough to have a discussion with, and might, after her unprompted outburst, deserve further perspective on her 'minority' opinion.]

There are other things, other, virulent, parasites out there... somewhere, you know.

Futilely trying to sustain themselves on the lives and.. dimensions of others. Wearing a friendly face as a disguise to talk the natives into giving up resistance, into being obstacles, as you put it, while they're busy massacring every living thing in the name of their own survival. Destroying worlds, if not more...

[Her description comes to a juddering halt there. Her world is one thing. Thinking of that infinite blackness, without a single star's light left in the sky... it's a good thing it's only audio, as she shudders.]

These ones might have pulled us here instead of... [how would you even word it? Marian isn't sure, pausing in uncertainty.] ...injecting themselves into our dimensions. But I'm not about to act as if their intentions are any better or as if it's that different in the end.

[Lance is quiet while she talks, listening, and it isn't too difficult to guess she's talking from some sort of personal knowledge of experience. The pauses in her story only make that more clear.

It also explains why she's taken the stance she has and he can understand that better, even if he still disagrees. But he's an empathetic person in general, and the explanation only makes him feel for her more; he's quiet for a short time after she finishes, deciding on the best way to respond.]

I understand why you would have... More specific reason to be concerned than many others would.

[And that entire idea of that sounds horrible, and even though this isn't the same situation--and Marian mentioned that--it's surely similar enough that her emotional reaction makes plenty of sense. Besides, it's not like he's one to talk about drawing similarities between situations and not handling them quite as well as he should because of it.

He's quiet again for a few seconds before speaking once more.]

I think what you told me earlier, about trying to find the Door, is the best course of action we have. It would not only save those who have worlds to return to, but potentially allow for a way to stop anyone else from being brought here.

[No one has to die who wasn't going to already, and the spread of damage that Marian is worried about could be stopped. Then the Null and the gods could kill each other to their hearts' content; he'd rather they didn't, but he's far more concerned about the innocent people caught up in this than the issues of the beings who caused them to be. And he thinks that from what she's said, despite the way she's been presenting things, Marian also cares about the individual people involved as long as the big picture is considered too.]

Frankly, I'm not optimistic about our chances, with limited knowledge and equipment to work with. Even the parasites themselves seem to have a very poor understanding of its workings. We can't even be sure it's a physical thing that beings like ourselves could handle... or that the parasites couldn't simply appear and whisk it away from us if found. So don't count on it.

[It should go without saying that despite that, she'll keep working on it. What else is she going to do?]

Optimistic or not, it's still better than the alternatives.

[Failing wouldn't make anything worse than it already is, so as far as he's concerned it doesn't matter if it's optimistic or not. Besides, he's seen people get out of hopeless situations through long shots before, and has done so himself as well.]

[A few days after the illusionary world dissipates around them, there are two jugs of tea left on Marian's doorstep, along with a note:]

Edited 2017-08-01 22:24 (UTC)

Why are you still helping me?

[Empathy for whatever horrible things are in each others' pasts is one thing. But she knows full well he's offended over her reaction to Glacius, and still hasn't exactly apologized. It's hard to believe anyone is just that altruistic...]

[Stupid full mailbox.

Honestly, he should've expected it. Being difficult to reach would suit Marian, although now that Lance knows where the lab is--and that she's probably there--he'll just go talk to her in person.

So he shows up in the afternoon, when he's managed to convince himself to get up and leave the house, and he might look somewhat like a zombie at the moment. That's actually why he's there to talk to her, although he remembers she seems a little jumpy and so tries not to startle her when he steps into the lab.]

Marian?

[Afternoon is a good time: after checking that everything was fine back at the Colloseum in the morning, Marian came back to the lab to work on a few other things... purely theoretical at this point, but as a last resort... so when she hears her name called, she stops scrawling math across the lab's whiteboard and turns her head, pen in hand and once again seeming mildly startled.

But it's just Lance, and that fades quickly. No pleasantries, just a blunt:]

What?

[He's used to bluntness, so it doesn't bother him. He does shift awkwardly on his feet a moment though, before actually responding.]

Although it won't be an issue tonight, I wanted to give you advance notice that I won't be available to watch the equipment tomorrow night.

[A pause.]

Unless you can't find anyone else, anyway.

[He knows she has other volunteers but he doesn't want to leave her with no one if they're not an option for whatever reason.]

There are a few other supposedly reliable individuals that don't mind staying through the night. I can contact them and let you know.

My goddess would smile upon me for helping others, as it means she doesn't have to do it herself.

[And then, a couple of minutes later comes a more candid answer.]

Besides that, I know what it is like to not be able to sleep for fear of what lurks in the shadows. Since I was a lad, I've had dreams so vivid that I cannot tell them from reality even long after I awaken. I have seen my end, and I know the inexorable dread that accompanies it. It would be cruel to let someone suffer in the same way I do.

Okay, awesome. Thanks.

[He's too tired to manage more intelligent words; he used his allotment for the day already five seconds ago while talking to her.]

I guess I'll um, let you get back to... Whatever that is.

[The math, he means.]

[If it had been the first message alone, Marian's response would have been very different. But halfway through typing a reply, the second arrives, and, well.

Yes, she'd seen the end. But not her end. That of some unspeakable alien thing at the end of a cold, dead universe, neither truly living nor dead, merely waiting for some source of life to latch onto for even one more fleeting moment of existence...

There's a long break before the next message, regaining her composure. It's a good thing it's only text.]

Then you'll understand when I say again that my problems have nothing to do with your partner, himself.

[It's not an apology, but the vague implication is slightly more than she's said before.]

Hadriel IC Contact.

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